Future of illegal Occupy Vancouver structures now rests with voters

Post by Daniel Fontaine in

111 comments

tentcity3.JPG
These structures have cost Vancouver taxpayers at least $540,000 + so far

It’s official. The fate of the illegal Occupy Vancouver structures now rests in the hands of Vancouver voters who are set to go to the polls on November 19th.

Yesterday the 10-1 Vision Vancouver/COPE majority decided it wasn’t prepared to provide city staff with any direction regarding what to do with the illegal tents. In fact, a motion by NPA mayoral candidate Suzanne Anton to debate the Occupy Vancouver tents was not even seconded by a single member of council.

As a result, the motion died on the order paper as dozens of squatters cheered the Mayor and his political colleagues for their continued support (free power, water, garbage pickup, recycling, 24/7 security etc...).

Yet again Vision Vancouver has demonstrated a level of arrogance that hasn’t been seen in these parts for decades. By refusing to even second Anton’s motion, they have sent a clear message to those opposing the encampment – “you effin NPA hacks can can go fly a kite”.

Was Anton surprised her motion wasn’t even allowed to be debated? I doubt it. As the lone opposition member on council she regularly has her microphone shut off by the mayor whenever he doesn’t like the message.

Now that Vision/COPE (as well as senior brass at City Hall) have given the green light to the illegal encampment, rest assured it ain’t going anywhere fast. It's also painfully obvious that if Mayor Gregor wins another massive majority we might be talking about this (or another similar) encampment well into the 2014 election cycle. No, I’m not kidding folks.

Anton’s position regarding when the illegal squat should end has been a lot clearer than Robertson's daily dithering. Yet oddly she's the one facing most of the media attacks for not releasing a minute-by-minute program of how she would remove the illegal tents.

With the memory or Robertson’s Riot fresh in their minds, the mayor is desperately trying to convince people that any attempt to take down the tents will erupt in violence. It’s an amazing position to take considering the role he played in giving Vancouver a huge black eye on June 15th.

The reality is Vancouver has had tent cities in the past and they have been removed peacefully. It's also worth noting that Mayor Gregor removed a similar tent city earlier this year from the grounds of the Olympic Village when it threatened the City’s bottom line. But if it affects the bottom line of a few local food carts and hotels – oh well, that’s the price of democracy.

The reality is the only people talking up violence in relation to the Occupy Vancouver movement are the Mayor and his political team. I have yet to hear anyone from COPE, the NPA or even the Occupy folks promote the fact this illegal encampment could become violent. But if the mayor is to survive past the November 19th civic election, it’s critical he instill fear of the unknown into the discussion. So far by pointing fingers at Oakland and Portland, he’s been successful at doing so.

In addition to not seconding Anton’s motion, City Manager Penny Ballem pulled another one of her procedural tricks again yesterday. Rather than writing up a staff report and posting it online so everyone could read it and digest the information ahead of time, she chose to deliver a Power Point presentation in real time. No wonder they call Vancouver City Hall a sealed fortress.

Unlike almost every other city who is struggling with what to do with illegal encampments, Vancouver has gone above and beyond the call of duty. The Mayor is not only tolerating the tents, he is helping to facilitate them. What next, will squatters be offered free spa treatments too?

With Anton’s motion now dumped from council's agenda, the fate of the Occupy Vancouver structures now rests with Vancouver voters.

If they want to support the illegal encampment (and the many more that are sure to follow) for months or years to come, they should vote Vision/COPE. If they want a government that commits to ending the illegal encampment as soon as possible, they will vote NPA.

The outcome of the November 19th election will determine how much access the public will have to their "public" spaces into the future. Let's see what 28% (projected voter turnout) of them decide.

- Post by Daniel. You can follow us on on Twitter @CityCaucus or you can "like" us on Facebook at facebook.com/citycaucus.

111 Comments

Excuse me? Illegal?

Only as illegal as the whole colonial Government--remember, boys and girls, this is how your corporatist cluster [edited] got started: a bunch of people camping in tents on "somebody else's" land.

So if you think Occupy Vancouver has to go, so does the City. Or are you a bunch of Nazis who thinks Might = Right?

Godwin's Law: ""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

If I owned one of those food trucks, I would park it anywhere, anytime and just ignore the rules and the food inspectors.

If I owned a restaurant I would expand it by taking over the sidewalk and street in front of my establishment.

Because our Mayor said it is OK for the Occupy Vancouver to the do this and we are all equal.

Right Mayor Moonbeam?

They are obeying health inspectors and they are keeping the sidewalks clear so your comparisons are ridiculous. What is your next lame, illogical argument?

@ Really - I don’t think she is being illogical at all. The restaurant and food cart apply (and pay) for a permit and abide by those rules with respect to where they operate. The food cart vendor can’t take any corner and the restaurant can’t expand when it chooses to. I don’t understand why OVP can’t abide by the same rules if they intend for a long stay with ambiguous reasons at best. They claim to be doing no harm to anyone however, the people who had lawfully applied to use the same space and cant (both now and in the future due to damage or clean up required) might disagree with you.

As a complete aside, why are the only two obvious supporters of OVP in this thread so hostile? Isn’t this a peaceful protest? Why so serious??

They are staying all night long and erecting structures.
That is against by-laws and as far as I am concerned health regulations.
They are also causing dangerous situations by blocking City streets and creating traffic chaos.

As someone who has always believed in LAWFUL protest, I say:

GO HOME at night.
Protest all you want during the day.

Do not turn lawful protest into a sleepover, campground.

That is how our 'lawful' rights will get eroded.

All protests have an element of truth to them, it's amazing how they get hi-jacked by individuals who want to get their faces in the news.People who don't give a damn about the truth of a message.

I wonder what would happen if the cameras went away?


Protesting is not illegal. These people are out there for you to get the corporations and greed out of government. David Suzuki is on board.

Well, if David Suzuki is on board then it must all be entirely justified.

Imagine; criminalizing the act of protesting in a Democratic society! It's not only concerning, but it just shows you how ignorant people can be. Believe me, when their defined benefit plans are renegotiated downward because of corporate malfeasance, and when the perps get away without being held accountable and none of the assets can be retrieved (because the perps are the biggest campaign supporters of them all) - the anti OWS crowd will change their tune. Or maybe they will educate themselves after another Basi/Virk, Boss Power, BC Hydro, BC Ferries, HST or Olympic Village scam creates so much debt that taxes in millionaire city get raised yet again just to pay off those losses while simultaneously cutting essential services.

BC has been in a bull market for tax revenues for over a decade because of historic real estate appreciation, an increase in the taxpayer base, and broad-range commercial prosperity. What happened to the loot??? People should be asking about where all that money went. Our elected officials remind me of the protagonists in those cautionary tales regarding lottery winners that go broke soon after their big haul. That's exactly the spirit guiding the fiduciary recklessness that has led us to where we are.

Mike S - I am in the 99% that Occupy Van claims to represent. THEY AND YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME AND THE COUNTLESS OTHERS IN THIS GROUP. The protesters claim to be against corporate greed - yet there they are on their cell phones, ipads, ipods, drinking Starbucks coffees and getting free electricity generated by BC Hydro. How hypocritical!!

How can you ever close the gap between classes when most of the protesters don't even work - pretty hard to close any gap when you are at zero! Why would you begrudge those that want to get ahead and be a productive member of society.

This gutless Mayor and Vision council are so afraid of the left wing backlash that they rather do nothing which is the easy way out. We of the silent majority want our square back - enough is enough!

I want Vancouverites to think carefully about what has gone on over the past weeks. Occupy Vancouver has become co-opted by a party whose only real concern is to get re-elected. The sad part is the die hards down at the VAG don't necessarily realize that Vancouver's left has in fact abandoned them for the sake of the getting the Mayor reelected. Consider the conspicuous absence of a strong presence from the Labour movement. Why hasn't this protest been bigger? Louder? More entrenched? Other than Winnipeg, where else is there a Canadian city more filled with left leaning conscientious objectors, hollyhock worshipers and labour agitators? Where did all those Olympic protestors go? I suspect all have been told to stand down by Vision, particularly Labour. Let the encampment run its course and don't do anything to provoke more angst from the centre right AND let our politicized City Manager foot the bill for keeping it clean and safe, instead of pursuing this through the proper legal means. The only way the City can affordably do this is to keep the protest on a manageable scale. OV is tokanism in its worst form. Anton is well within her duties as a Councillor to request an end to it. The Courts need to step in and if the protestors want they should absolutely press the system to its max by holding their ground peacefully with reinforcements, lots of world attention/media and possibly bring the local government down. Everyone one knows this can end without violence its just that it comes with too great a political cost to the present Mayor.

How to shut down Occupy Vancouver Peacefully?

Step one: Photograph every single occupant. Get their names and addresses recorded.

Step two: Set up surveillance cameras in full view of all.

Step three: Offer each and every one of them free buffet lunch at 312 Main St.

hate to burst your bubble Mike, but David Suzuki sold out long time ago..

I wonder how long it will be before the Art Gallery, already in the hole $860+K, becomes a no go zone for the film industry.

Can the VAG, city and province afford to lose that revenue?

"Foulfellow:(Noticing Gregorocchio) Look Giddy, look, it's amazing! A live puppet without strings, a thing like that ought to be worth a fortune to someone. Now let me see... that's it! Solomoni! Why that old faker would give his - - listen if we play our cards right we'll be on easy street or my name isn't Honest John."
From "Pinocchio", 1940

Also, I think this fits in here perfectly... (from earlier on Fabula)

Glissando Remmy // Nov 2, 2011 at 3:26 pm

The Thought of The Day

“I want my credit card debt erased too… but could we wait until after the Christmas shopping spree, please!”

Everyone has credit cards these days. And debt. Who doesn’t? As the legend says, after every child is born, the first one to visit mother and child, after the father of course, if he’s not already there, is the nurse, followed by the local banker, offering a large variety of colorful, nice and shiny credit cards.

That’s why, some people end up naming their kids, Amexia, Mastero or Visalina! True story!
So I’ve heard…
The only ones not naming their own after the major banking institutions are a select group of families known as the Private Equity and Investment Funds Players aka Hollyhockers. They have other charitable means of exposure to the mighty dollar.
In other words, they don’t care and talk about money around the table because they are all socialists and perhaps because… they had always got the money!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIgltzjwNd0

One could only imagine The Joel Solomon circle of friends speaking high about those Occupy Vancouver chaps and what a great job their boy Gregor is doing for the comrades of Vancouver…
If you catch my drift.

Cause’ let me give you the waking up call, people, if you are not prepared to take down the corrupt banking system by force, overnight, and for ever change the ways it operates… and put all those corrupt bankers in prison, depose them of all of their assets and distribute their last year’s bonuses equitably between all of us, and then wipe down all the collective debt that puts you and me in ‘slavery’… than shut up… cheap rhetoric I’ve seen a dime a dozen.

What do you think will happen?
Chu’s $200,000 +…, Penny’s $315,000+perks… , Aufochs’s $220,000 +…, Robertson’s $155,000 + their generous Tax Free Travel Allowances in the tenths of thousands of $… are going straight to those Banks. And nicely deposits they make. Those Select Accounts are real Lookers, I tell you!
Parked there nicely and expecting great % interest!
But, but, but, their money need to be safe right? So you see my point?
How many of those Occupiers sucking wind and rain and dust out there even think about all these things, eh?
Who do they think the Mayor , the City Manager and The Police Chief are… their friends?
Ha, ha, ha, LMAO!

Cause’ in the end, it’s public money they are all using and spending in order to perpetuate this sit-in, monies taken away from anything labeled “civic service” in this city. Anything. Period.

There was not enough monies to save the Children’s Farm in Stanley Park remember that, Aaron Jasper? Almost killed the Bloedel Conservatory if it wasn’t for a handful of real heartfelt group of people now running with the NPA for Park Board, there was much stress and animosity over the possible closure of several schools throughout Vancouver- for lack of money, especially on the East side, VSB president Patti Bacchus of Vision fame being the torchbearer of incompetence in that matter.
Money, money, money… lots of money, but when it comes to find the money when it’s needed, they are nowhere to be found!

Come Game 7 of a freakin’ hockey game though, and Voila! No problemo. Central meeting place, jumbotrons, and beer, lots of beer, come downtown my good men, says Riotson!
Same now. Everything New York City, goes!
We are all Rockfella’ Brothers in here!
The city is hemorrhaging money from the seams as if there was no tomorrow. Yet…

For those of you who hope your credit card debt is going to disappear… I doubt it.
You’ll still have to pay your banker before you register your Amexia for swimming lessons, or your little Master in junior Hockey, the only difference is, pretty soon you may find out that you’ll have to pay more, because Gregor and his Vision Clownship gave all the money away to … people that will fight those Draconian charges for you… we’ll call you back on that, though!

So basically, IMHO those already hurt by the banking industry, will be hurting some more!
And no, if you were curious, this will not affect the Vision insiders, in their kayaking good times anytime soon. Remember? They don’t care about money!

Can anyone spell "Double Screwed" for me?!
All I can offer you at this point is a Double Espresso, to alienate that migraine you’ll be having in a moment, now that you know.

But no seriously, I am not joking, I want my credit card debt wiped out too! Now. Or after Christmas!

We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

How do you think Occupy Vancouver is raising money?
Are they being funded by a corporation? Foundation? individual donors? Via PayPal?

Do they have a Society to receive the funds?

Who do you think holds their bank account? Where are their funds being deposited?

The Occupy Wall St say the banks are holding back money for many of the credit card donations. Would banks do that in Canada?

If OV doesn't have large donors, who is funding their food, PortaJohns, equipment etc. We already know that you and I are paying for Fire Dept, VPD, City of Vcr staff.....what else?

Look forward to seeing someone do a bit of investigating here.

It is not simple to create a Society that is a requirement to set up a Bank account..... unless OV has an account under an individuals name. Not a vehicle for good fundraising.
Would you give a donation to an individual?

Anyone checked out if they have done that? If so, what is the description of the Society's function.

If they are not living up to the named Society's function the Provincial Govt might want to look at closing down the donor recipient's bank account? Just asking.........

Besides Telus and Canwest Global, name me a public company that has a defined benefit plan?!!!!
All of the ones you list are governement agencies!

It's only the government hacks and the Union hacks that even have these plans.

That's what so hilarious about CUPE being down there protesting their lungs out. They're the ones with their snouts deepest in the corporate troughs.

Of course, if their pension plan has a shortfall because they decided to undercut the very companies that they are invested in, they will just hit up the taxpayer to fill in the hole too?

What's the difference between them and the big corps you villify for needing bailouts?

Big Brother is Watching You.

Forgot for a minute that CityCaucus was a NPA newsletter...

"We of the silent majority" Let's be clear that you do not speak for anyone other than yourself. Same for me. Same for everyone on this blog except for the few like Daniel and Bill who may speak for the NPA, though this is not clear.

This is all bogus political posturing on both sides. The NPA knows it would do exactly what Vision is doing if it were in power. Ms. Anton can take these positions because she is not able to act on them before the election. This may or may not be smart political strategy, I am sure she has many highly paid advisors working this out for her, but it has nothing to do with coming up with a believable solution.

Oh phew, I was worried for a moment there that Daniel wasn't going to find a space to squeeze in a "Robertson's Riot".

David Suzuki? Oh you mean the multi-millionaire with 3 homes scattered around the world? Ah.. okay then.

Turn the VAG into social housing. Problem solved.

(No charge for these amazing ideas. I do it for my community.)

Robertson's Riot Part 2 might be coming when they eventually try to clear out the squatters. The city and police are so astonishingly clueless about where this is heading (see Oakland). No one, except for them is going to be surprised .

Can our Worship invite all the OCCUPY VANCOUVER PROTESTERS to camp on the grounds of CITY HAUL instead.

BREAKING NEWS: An overdose at the squat. Reporters told to mind their own business and stay away.

----

CKNW reports

Some commotion at the Occupy Vancouver site, after it became the site of a medical emergency and reporters were told to clear out.

First responders attended to a young man in one of the many tents at the art gallery this morning.

He was later taken away by ambulance.

Emotions ran high at the site as occupants shouted at reporters and camermen and asked them to leave the public space.

Other protestors quickly distanced themselves, saying it was simply a medical emergency and not linked to any health conditions at the tent city.

No word on the cause of the 9-1-1 call although there were unconfirmed reports it was a drug overdose.

http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1566096

@J
You forgot for a minute that Citycaucus is an NPA newslettr? Then why are you here? You could go post over at The Mainlander, they could use the hits.

@Terry
An overdose? Wow what a shock. Not.

one report briefly stated propane tanks were also found.. that is a huge problem..
Global TV last night clearly showed a man smoking pot from a bong, so the no smoking bylaws are not being enforced...what else is hidden in the tents...
Yet the City found it necessary to shut down the peaceful non drug smoking Falun Gong..absolute hypocrisy..

my god barbeques and smoking?? Rape and murder are just around the corner!!!

Next story please.

So is Gregor going to wait until someone dies now? Because between the weather, rats, obvious lack of sanitation, and now drug overdoses there's a very strong chance of that happening unless action is taken soon.

Protest during the day. Go home at night. Simple & more effective.

Rats?! Really? The MSM, just like this blog, will cover anything at all about the protest through the prism of specious hyperbole, except for the myriad issues themselves. It's a tragedy of our times how thoroughly the 4th estate has been captured and co-opted.

There are more rats feasting off of the backyard compost piles on any given block in Kitsilano than there are at Occupy, lol.

Hyperbole?

The young man who nearly died of a drug overdose is very real.

The rampant drug use on the site is very real.

The lack of sanitation on the is very real.

The physical threats of violence to reporters on the site were very real.

Whatever point this "occupation" was trying to make is completely lost due to the fact that it is degenerating into something resembling Lord of the Flies.

In our democracy, the points the protesters want to make can made without mindlessly risking some young person's life.

So they want to change the world,they should start a company hire a bunch of people pay them a fair wage with benefits and a pension and no matter how well the company does,and the fact they gambled their families future and work 100 hours a week never pay themselves more than their lowest paid employee.What do you think the chances are they would do that?Nevermind.

brilliant point gman...

What; the lack of decorum surrounding the protest of issues that constitute the biggest scandal of our time doesn't meet with your approval? Sorry. Were your delicate feelings hurt when the bad man with the ugly sign used naughty words to make his point??? Were you expecting s'mores and touch football? Are you really-really-sad about Santa Claus-gate? Get over yourself and get real. There is more chaos at a Justin Bieber mall appearance or the Army/Navy shoe sale then there is at your precious Vag.

Problems at the site certainly exist, but they are being exacerbated on one flank, and exaggerated on another to manipulate the public opinion of the sheople (you) who are obscenely misinformed regarding the several issues that make up the foundation of the movement. This is a Machiavellian strategy to silence the voices of the protesters, while simultaneously shaping public opinion against them so that the issues are never articulated in a fashion that penetrates the greater community, and thereby prevents them from having to be addressed right now - before more damage is done.

Hey George,maybe if we went down there with a big bucket got them all to empty their pockets into it then we can redistribute all their money evenly.Im sure they would be all for it....right....right...ah maybe not so much.

Or we could get this guy to show up at 5 A.M every morning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMuWi0dUBc

So...a young man nearly dying is part of some sort of "Machiavellian" strategy by the 1%?

No, dumba$$. It happened, and it happens a lot around here in millionaire lotusland (ever been to the Downtown Eastside?). However, it has been weaponized in the PR war being quietly waged against the movement in a very intentional, cynical fashion. I don't really expect you to comprehend what I just explained; others might, though.

Hey; wait a minute! You remind me of someone. Didn't I see you in a youtube clip starting a conga-line at the Christy Clark inauguration soiree?

At the moment, I see only one person in these comments minimizing the value of human life...and he just called me a dumba$$.

LMAO...could be very interesting, here is a point... Why are the Occupiers so protective of what is hidden in those tents?
Propane tanks were found, one spark and there goes the publicly owned VAG..and many lives..Global news last night showed open drug smoking ...one spark..kaboom..then the Man has to come in patch them up, put out the fire, replace the precious works of Art..humm

oh brother this was coherent..

"However, it has been weaponized in the PR war being quietly waged against the movement in a very intentional, cynical fashion. I don't really expect you to comprehend what I just explained; others might, though."

take another hit on that bong Leon..weaponized do you mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlsdx_IDhwQ

Now this makes sense..next cut the hydro and water

24hoursvan 24 hours Vancouver
Fire officials have ordered #OccupyVancouver to "remove unoccupied tents" and "tarp enclosures or erect overhead tarps" by 10AM Friday.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

There is a good lesson here..drugs are for dummies..it ruins lives and in this case..it ruins occupations..

bobmackin Bob Mackin
#Vancouver fire chief issues safety compliance order to #OccupyVancouver, hours after camper overdose.
1 minute ago

Yep,you mix propane tanks with dope and nylon tents then your going to get a visit from the fire chief.

What's with the fear mongering George?

What is it with the Mayor avoiding a public safety issue boohoo..thankfully our fire department has some ba**s

Mayor Dithers has told media today taxpayers will continue to provide free electricity, water, security, food, toilets etc... "indefinitely" to the squat.

I never thought gregor could lose this election, but after the last 48 hours

- santa kicked out
- christmas tree ceremony cancelled
- near drug overdose death
- two propane tanks onsite

he may be a gonner sooner than we think.

Santa kicked out lol...too funny.

What makes this public safety issue so critical George? There are thousands out there but a few idiots with a hibachi smoking weed is the one we need to talk about?

Because my dear Boohoo.

The so called protest is growing momentum with people who don't give a damn about the original issue.

They're really happy to lie around,smoke dope, build their little tent city and demand "WHAT???"

Can't come in my tent? Why?
You're illegally squatting.

you'll see boohoo..just keep watching..it's bigger than you think..Gregor will take a big hit when all is revealed...HAHAHAHA...its coming..

Reminds me of the DTES.

Stop the NONSENSE.

His Handsomeness wont do anything to the folks down there because their his base.So now he dumped it on the fire chief,cant wait to see how that will work out.These things rarely end peacefully.

George, what's coming? What's bigger? Be specific.

His handsomeness? Why do his looks keep coming up in insults? And if these few hundred people are his base as you claim, then how did he get elected?

I just don't know why this is a big deal--the more you hype this up the longer it lasts.

can't tell you boohoo it would spoil the surprise...just keep your eyes and ears open...timing is everything...

Insult Boo,I thought it was a compliment.Maybe you should direct your question to the great kilted one himself,after all Im just an F..ing hack,but be careful how you ask or he might cut your mike off.

George,

I don't want to be surprised, I want information. What's coming?

lol gman... mic check!

mic check! aha thats perfect George.

If anyone thinks Robertson is going to say boo about the 'camp' prior to election, they are delusional.

He will do zip, but stand by, shrug shoulders and watch and hide under what ever excuse will buy him time.

After the election is a whole different ball park.

but, he is underestimating the general public and the businesses in the area.

This will bite him in the butt - it is the handling of the 'riot' all over again.

Wow - lived in Kits for 19 + years and have seen 1...this past summer.

@George:

On CBC about 2 weeks ago - the Mayor stated he would not make the occupiers mover - it would be up to the City Staff... health and safety.

And guess what, negative opinions coming in - Santa Parade and even bigger the Food Bank Drive...and voila - the fire dept is left to start cleaning up the mess.

Robertson will do nada - until after Nov. 19.

But by then, the general public may voice their own opinion of a weak 'leader'.

@M agree, but I'll bet those propane tanks they found and the inability to get to the heroin o/d probably gave Gregor a sigh of relief..he had someone he could pass the hot potato to...what a coward..

For those playing politics with the events of the day I'll say this.

Never lose sight of what happened today.

Someone nearly lost their life because of this "occupation". No leaders...no rules...no message...nothing. This man nearly lost his life over nothing.

But no one should ever belittle this man`s life.

Once again I say...peacefully protest during the day and go home at night. What violence could possibly come from a peaceful movement that wants to get people`s attention when the masses are awake...

No, nothing George? Just another vague insinuation? Another vague reference to you knowing something but never saying?

You should read the boy who cried wolf.

@RealityCheck

Your conclusion is at odds with media accounts. They report that the quick actions of an OV medic saved the man's life. Why would you conclude that the tent city caused him to OD? Isn't that simply where he was when he took the drugs?

I too would like to see the tent city come down, and daytime protests be allowed to continue. But I don't get how painting the occupation as a cause of sad situations like this overdose helps. Why not focus on what they are actually protesting?

I agree with gman that it is unlikely to end peacefully if the occupiers are removed by force.

So I am left wondering why so many are advocating that solution?

Just keep your ears open boohoo,
I obviously have your attention...good!!

That's pathetic George. Grow up. If you have something to contribute, say it. Otherwise stop with the bs 'I know but I'm not telling' childish, assinine behaviour.

Have a good day boohoo ;-)

Exactly what I was saying last night. Move the whole thing to the grounds of CITY HALL. That's where they are in LA and other cities. Then Gregor et al will have a beautiful view out his very expensive office window.

I am still trying to wrap my head around what exactly they are protesting.

Extract empathy for their American counterparts, extract the catch words that people throw into a sentence to sound intelligent or relevant and I get nothing but dead air.

How can anyone find solutions when you cannot articulate the problem? Do the protesters have any solutions of their own besides create a new world order?

That might be the answer but it could take a while. The Roman Empire did not collapse over night and was not replaced with a simply wave of a magic wand.

Julia I agree they have totally lost the plot.When this first started I thought great people are finally waking up but instead of a clear message its turned into a joke.I think the first thing on the agenda at that time should have been get out of NATO stop bombing cities like Sirte into the the stone age with my tax dollars,get corps. and their lobbyists out of government,put the fear of the people back in government.But instead they seem to call for bigger government and a sense that the world owes them a living.I swear it reminds me of Stalins chicken.

Thanks George. Based on the list of 59 demands, I think they might be there for a while.

I like #41 We demand an end to the corporate funding and control of "collages" (sic) and universities.

The reasons you do not understand what they are protesting are legion. They begin with the MSM and alternative media refusing to cover the reasons behind the activism in favor of fixating on anything that could be construed as salatious, controversial, or inappropriate. In the age of the 24/7 news cycle it is even more egregious that the 4th estate has betrayed its charge the way it has.

If you were actually interested in learning their "cause" (and did not want to go down there yourself to speak with someone knowledgeable), it would take you all of a few minutes to glean the fundamentals. Even if you were unwilling or incapable of such conventional research, most people would have a basic idea from watching the news for the last several years with the understanding that the same problems (with regional idiosyncrasies) seem to be metastasizing from nation to nation. The symptoms may vary on the surface, but the cause is the same; rampant looting and gaming of our financial system to benefit a very small % of individuals who use money to capture and coopt decision-makers at key levels of society. This is not a new phenomena, but it has grown exponentially in the last decade such that it has over whelmed the "body's immune system". What was once an expected/known irritant has morphed into cancer.

I have worked in Finance, Politics, and Business for 20 years here; but mostly in the States. We have seen this slow train comin' for many years. An associate of mine has devoted almost a decade and over a million $$ just to elucidate one dimension of the story at deepcapturedotcom. All the facts are there and many names are named. It's there for you or anyone who sincerely expresses curiosity about the tip of the iceberg that will eventually relegate us all to passenger status on Titanic 2.0 (even many of us with relative wealth/security).

When I was a child I was never allowed to hide behind ignorance as a legitimate excuse for not apprehending something important. I was taught that that was lazy and principally wrong. I was informed that there were myriad libraries and enough knowledgeable people in our midst whom I could query regarding most any subject I wanted to learn about. That remains true today.

Anyone who blames protesters for not articulating their protest to acceptable satisfaction is just copping out. The info is there. Anyone who doesn't see the connection between Wall St., Greece, the American foreclosure crisis, the imminent Chinese real-estate collapse, the run on the banks in many countries (most notably New Zealand and Ireland), wild international currency value swings, the price of gold quadrupling in a short period of time, the macro financial unsustainability of Spain, Portugal, Italy and others, the bursting real-estate bubble in Oz, and yes; things like the HST, the Ferries crisis, the BOSS scam, Basi/Virk, the BC Hydro situation, etc. - *anyone who cannot connect the dots between these types of issues is willfully and dangerously ignorant*. Or they are Bill Good and his producers, lol...

given my regular participation on this blog, I would hardly say I am 'copping out'.

In the world of communication there are 2 sides to a conversation - those that need to convey the message and those that hear the message. If those that speak cannot articulate the message clearly, the listener has no hope of getting the message.

I am looking at the 59 demands that George has provided from the CBC - put them into english, explain why, provide a solution and then come talk to me.

The truth hurts sometimes; this is true. But the fact remains that you have abdicated your responsibility to know about crucial issues that will doubtlessly affect you and yours, and you have done this under the banner of "they aren't clear enough, they aren't coherant enough, I saw a draft of demands that seemed ill-advised or were unacceptable to me". Do you even hear yourself? You seem articulate enough in your posts to have enough cognitive capacity to get past your biases - but maybe not...

The veritas of that draft that good ol' Georgie has thoughtfully provided has yet to be established. Let's table our discussion until we know whether it is real.

Why not speak to my points, which I have asserted are the root causes that have helped to catalyze their movement? Funny how even you don't get near the likely causes of the now international "occupy" movement. What's your theory; adolescent angst? Laziness? Entitlement-itis? I have spent a lot of time on the front lines and am fully prepared to support what I suggest is manifesting in tent-cities of ersatz activists who may or may not be fully capable of describing the crisis to your pre-chewed, soundbites-only-get through liking.

If anyone is plagued by a hopeless sense of entitlement, it's the pseudo-knowledgeable keyboard analysts like you, George, and Max, et al. You feel you are "entitled" to confine their protests into a format you deem acceptable. You believe you are "entitled" to be apprised (in terms acceptable to you, no less) as to what their concerns are about in succinct terms no matter how broad, ever-evolving (the crisis is not static), or complex the issues may be. How crazy is that? A pathology is still a pathology even if it suffered by masses.

I regret being the one to tell ya; but it's time to grow up, Julia - whether you want to yet or not.

Leon
For a supposed new comer to this blog, you sure seem to have decided that you know everything about everybody who posts here.

Insulting people does not seem very grown up to me.

Chris; I guess you are just another decorum fetishist whose delicate sensibilities are not compatible with the realities of the current brand of democratized dialogue. You know, you may be related to the people who complained about "all that infernal racket" while Rome burned to the ground. Look into it. Well; at least you have found your people...

I keep my extrapolation about personalities to a minimum while focusing on the points that are made and how they are attempted to be made. yes - sometimes this process reveals things which I respond to in way that is commensurate with their toxicity. Guilty as charged. We live in a time where some people need to be told off and exposed for the damage that they do. Gone are the days where Marques of Queensbury always set the tone. Deal with it.

Maybe the city can bill the occupiers for the cost of the policing, once they have gone. Maybe then they'll get the message that you can't have everything for free.

Maybe the city can bill the occupiers for the cost of the policing, once they have gone. Maybe then they'll get the message that you can't have everything for free.

Dear Leon “Wall of Text” Newguy,

What’s your point? Your root cause has existed since humans decided to live in groups. Technology has allowed the real time connection of economies which has created the “ripple effect”. I don’t really need a group of tents to tell me that. More to the point, they don’t have any solutions. You won’t dismantle a global economic system, no matter how broken it may be, in a day. I look at these guys the same way did Greenpeace in the early days. Thanks for pointing out the problem, now get out of the way and let people actually develop solutions.

"I guess you are just another decorum fetishist whose delicate sensibilities are not compatible with the realities of the current brand of democratized dialogue."

Wow, Leon, you are good. Do you need to smoke anything first, or can you just come up with sentences like this at will?

Leon...You are judging us without even knowing who we are...you would be very surprised if you knew who you were dishing your crap out to...please spare us your condescending nonsense..

You are not the only American worker in this venue..how naive of you..we just take different approaches to things...your 50 dollar words don't impress, they make you look very foolish..

As for some of the issues you bring up...here is one for you..

http://alexgtsakumis.com/2011/11/04/exclusive-breaking-news-who-do-you-think-was-helping-negotiate-the-basi-virk-settlement-in-the-background/

You don't have a clue how deep it goes, little paul. If you did it would be at least faintly apparent in your comment. Your allusion to real-time interconnection and ripples is the stuff of the 6 o'clock news. it's specious at best and doesn't begin to explain what was done, what is still occurring - and by whom. The crisis is more sophisticated and detrimental for you and your econ 101/socio 101 ability to grasp without augmenting it with at least a few hundred hours of well-directed research. Taibbi has told part of the story. So has Michael lewis and Carrol Quigley. An exhaustive, forensic case study is elucidated on deepcapture at great expense to Dr. Byrne. Unless you understand their work - you are just a child talking out of his ar$e.

Now run along and check the real-estate comps in your neighborhood and pat yourself on the back again for the sheer brilliance (and corresponding terminal arrogance) behind your paper wealth, lol. We are indeed conceiving of potential solutions *despite you*; have been for years. Go back to sleep.

i mentioned to someone that a blogger had said that I was someone 'with delicate sensibilities'

Total silence, then hysterical laughter.

My hardworking,impoverished, widowed grandmother(long since departed), who worked her -you know what off- to raise her children, would be thrilled to hear that I was a decorum person.

Decorum -etiquette.

I'll settle for the meaning decency.

George, you are a trouble maker with the capacity to be better than that. I have dealt with your type many times. Your fear about what I have merely touched on is driving your compulsion to reflexively man the counterpoint without being equipped to do so. Your unspoken hope is that one of your intellectual haymakers lands, and the monster is vanquished. You have to get past that, and the only way is to learn about what is going on as thoroughly as you can. Time is running out - and I am not exaggerating.

I like Mr. Tsakumis a lot and respect his work very much. He is smart and brave. He and I definitely don't agree on everything; including some of what I consider fundamental truths at the core of most of what I have convolutedly touched upon. I am actually heartened that you dropped his name...

You would do you and yours a service to focus on the points that I attempt to make and not on the way in which I make them. Disprove them if they lack veracity. Be my guest. You would be doing me a favor. I know how I come across at times, and there is a reason for it that is not even remotely subject to your approval. I have earned my stripes the hard way, and I will convey my message in the fashion that I wish.

Peace will come http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1dkXE4URi4

"you would be very surprised if you knew who you were dishing your crap out to..."

That statement is utterly meaningless from you George.

Leon is your rush to judgement you failed to note I was agreeing with you on the BC Rail issue...but since you appear to be the judgmental sort ...so be it...LOL..

Leon, the first rule of dialogue is respect. If you can't offer me some dignity and respect, I simply don't have the time of day for you regardless of how indignant you become or how right you think you are.

'Elitist' cuts both ways.

Leon I think your shooting yourself in the foot,instead of attacking the people on this blog like George,who actually linked to something I think you agree with dont you think it would be better to try to win them over?Ive railed against most of what you listed for more than forty years and have developed a pretty thick skin because of it.What disappoints me is the giant list of beefs.What you seem to not understand is that when you put everything on the list it muddies the message.I would put to you that if you focus on two things,ending NATO and their re-colonization of the world and the crony capitalism that infests our governments you would see that all these other things fall under that umbrella and could be dealt with if and when we get our government back.This thing will end sooner or later and it wont be pretty and you will have failed to get any message across.

We should not be distracted into debating the merits of the demands of the criminals trespassing on the VAG land. I visited the crime scene today and saw the set up. There are kitchen facilities with full cooking arrangements two or three large coffee urns etc. tents, porta potties, beds, cots you name it. The mayor has the courage of the cowardly lion, the brains of the scarecrow and is as lost as Dorothy. He cowers behind the fire-fighters who are sent in with no police escort. he dithers like the wizard after being exposed for the little man that he is. Who is bound by the laws of the land? Not critical mass riders. No, none of the Mayors political allies are bound by laws. there cause, in their mind is just but more importantly, their cause aligns with Vision Vancouver and the Mayor of Oz.

skippy,

Once again, this theory of Gregor's base or political allies comes up. If, this rag tag group of a few hundred people, and/or the few hundred critical mass fools are his base, how did he get elected by a wide margin?

That weird theory just doesn't hold any water.

Skippy I'm not trying to debate them but rather trying to bring some clarity to the message,we all know the world is in trouble and I find it very disappointing that their turning what could have been a turning point in history into a gong show.As far as the mayor is concerned I view him as nothing but a talking head for Soros and tides and their ilk the man has never had an original thought in his life,so on that at least I think we could agree.

And Skippy I do agree the tents should go after all camping is not a protest.

By no means do i assert that these "fools" are his only supporters but rather his allies. The coalition of the left has many components and VV tries to woo those extremes within the left to shore up potential voters that will no doubt be leaning towards COPE. His inaction on critical mass and the criminals trespassing on VAG land are emblematic of his flirtation with the anarchy of the extreme left and invites others, whatever their cause maybe, to ignore the law. If I and others disagree with INSITE (using that only as an example), am I justified in breaking the law to disrupt the service provided to IV drug users? If I did what would be the response from the mayor and the police? The dissenting view is important but so is the integrity of the laws that bind us all to behave in a civil manner and engage in debate and listen to each other. That is what is lost on the Mayor. Disdain for the F***ing hacks that dare to disagree with his just causes
and coddling for criminals that vote for him

Just want to be 100.

"These things rarely end peacefully." Exactly. This is why Ms. Anton's posturing is nothing more than political gamesmanship. In the mayor's position she would be doing exactly what he is doing, playing for time.

Unfortunately for Anton and her supporters Anton's campaign promise of shutting down the protests is simply an outlandish promise that will never and can never be followed through on, legally. And she knows this, but she also knows the majority of Vancouverites that go to vote do not know this and will simply believe anything a campaign says.

Anton does not promise to shut down the protest. That is silly. No politician can shut down protest. The promise is to restore law and order and remove the criminals that have stolen the public space at VAG. Gregor has no strategy other than to dither. There should be a measured steady hardline taken to ensure all citizens can enjoy this public space. That starts with a deadline to remove the illegal squat and public posturing of same to ensure all are aware of the consequences of their criminal acts. That should be followed up with incremental measures that eventually result in the removal of the encampment. If the protestors desire is to defy the law and violently oppose reasonable measures, then any consequences are their responsibility.

The engineering costs covering Occupy Vancouver as of October 31:

$143,000.

VPD budget being drained and now risks going into the red.

Now, once this is done and dusted, how much damage to the VAG yard that the taxpayers will have to cover off as well.

Seems these people have zero problem putting their hands in the taxpayers pockets. Typical.

A death today at the squat. Will Gregor Robertson finally realize he needs to do something? I don't think so. Maybe a few more deaths will wake him up.

Wonder how all those media sympathizers of the squat feel now? Bet you aren't as smug tonight are you.

The Mayor has created the perfect conditions for the tragic death which occurred today. Cultivating a siege like atmosphere for a group of people who don't see leaving as an option. Starving them of political support from the left coupled with minimal conditions for livability in the interests of safety. I honestly think death becomes the next exit strategy for those presented with these types of conditions. This is why encampments, generally are a really really bad idea. I hope people see more than just the horrible misfortune of all this. Encampments are not ideal because their unwelcomeness permeates the best of intention and when you mix this with tough weather, vulnerable folks tend to falter rather than rise to the occasion. No question that anyone should be welcome to protest what has happened in the financial meltdown but avoiding the conflict these protests create for the sake of winning an election is in my opinion the most cowardly act I have seen in a politician in a very long time.

CBC story confirming death of a young woman in her 20's at the VAG squat. Very sad news. This should not be politicized by anyone but mourned by all. We are all diminished.

Jeff/Sandra,

Since when has a death spurred us to change our ways? How is this any one persons fault? I notice the other headline on the Sun is a 34 car crash in England, 7 dead, 51 injured. Is that any one persons fault? Will the British stop driving? Should we smugly sit on our horse and blame the leader of that town?

Get over yourselves.

Boohoo,

The Mayor took an oath. He made a big promise to help look after us all... Keep us safe from harm. Tragedies happen, I myself am not immune to that fact and have experienced a few first hand myself. In the case of the car crash in Great Britain, I am sure there will be questions and a full investigation because the rule of law will prevail, and allow for some answers as to why it happened. No that doesn't always mean we hold one single person accountable.
In the case of the encampment, I think we do need to hold the Mayor accountable given the oath he took. He should have acted sooner and not allowed it to take shape and been clear and unequivocal instead of playing a passive aggressive chess game with the community that has now formed there. I fundamentally disagree with the approach he has taken and I do think it paves a very clear path towards a tragic end, ripe with false hope, political maneuvering, and a complete disregard for the rule of law. Lastly, for the record, I don't plan to get over myself any time soon so you may be stuck with me for a while yet.

Skippy, I have started and aborted a comment several times tonight. Your word 'diminished' has pierced my heart.

Someones kid, sister, niece died today. For what? Whether an adult needed to protect her from herself - or others needed to listen to what she had to say... this is a lousy way to die.

No doubt, this young girl will get used in the same way the woman was used that died using a shopping cart for a home. Sadly, I don't see either side providing answers that would justify the price that has been paid by either woman.

Folks, the fun is over and the point has been made. Go home.

Unfortunately the OV group monopolizes prime protest space. Although I support much of the criticism of the marginalization that results from the current economic system, I see alienation of much of the OV support group. US OWS operations - which focus on the abominable regulation of the financial industry - have generated 43% public support, or more the Tea Party group. OV is running as a variant of the OWS campaign in spite of the lack of parallel issues. In any case the tragic death of a woman in her twenties gives cause to those who make claims that health interests warrant voluntary termination of the project. A lot of energy has risen from the protest; it should be directed against Canada's own marginalization practices.

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