Council approves Hornby bike lane trial

Post by Mike Klassen in


Here it comes, Hornby Street, like it or not

Another exhausting late night council meeting that have become a trademark of Gregor Robertson's Vision council, with the final vote to approve the Hornby bike lane trial happening just before midnight. The whole day was an interesting one where Mayor Gregor got what he wanted, but who really won the day for Vision? Robertson will get the credit, but the person who did the political heavy lifting on this file was clearly Coun. Geoff Meggs.

Meggs has become the point man on every single controversy this council has faced, with a minor exception of Coun. Deal who was fed to the wolves on the food cart flop and the Burrard bike lane. In the end the most persuasive voice in favour of the separated bike lane was former NPA city councillor Gord Price. Price referred to the creation of this separated bike lane – which on paper had been decided years ago – as a "click moment" for Vancouver, not unlike the completion of the Stanley Park seawall in the 1970s, and the False Creek seawall completion in the nineties.

Meggs may have done all the work on this file – even canvassing all businesses on Hornby Street – but his Vision colleagues showed their snippy side during the day's proceedings. Councillors Jang, Louie, Stevenson and Reimer all couldn't help themselves from making condescending remarks either about lane opponents, or even Coun. Anton's reflective remarks about her recent cycling experiences in Europe. You could cut the arrogance with a knife.

In the end how council made this decision happen will likely be forgotten by most. It may have illustrated some of Vision Vancouver's methods, but in the end history will note that it was during this term of government that downtown was linked from end to end by a separated bike lane. That same "history" will show that meanwhile the City struggled with debt, the Burrard Bridge was crumbling and in need of repair, and the Stanley Park Petting Zoo was closed.

More on this topic later today. For now, we turn the matter over to our readers for their insights.

- post by Mike


And a subsequent administration will mark how it will all be ripped out.

Right now, I am listening to Meggs on Global. He has indicated that the trial may go longer than the six months.

He stated 'they' would like to see it go for four seasons.

I don't remember reading that in any of the news reports anyhere to-date.

This council needs to be stopped. Councilor Reimer was twittering yesterday during the meeting about the theatrics of some of the presenters. Meggs called a little old lady a liar. And even Suzanne Anton seems powerless to create a good argument against the city hall establishment.

I was at the meeting until midnight last night, and I can tell you, the normally hot room was freezing cold from the snow job council was giving the public.

Shame on VV and Cope for turning this into a battle between dollars (business) and safety. Study after study shows separated bike lanes offer no more safety to cyclists, in fact the INCREASE the chance of collisions. This bike lane has NOTHING to do with safety. It's an ideological "click moment" (as Gordon price called it) that could have been done better to minimize impact on business and create a truly world-class cycling network.

Instead what we're getting is permanent concrete that's called a "trial." The street will have a modest amount of landscaping done to make the bike lane look better. Dunsmuir LOOKS UGLY. It's not a permanent installation and it's not temporary either.

3.3-million-dollars could have been used to make Hornby Street look really skookum with a new bike lane that took into account the needs of cyclists, motorists, pedestrians, residents and businesses.

Instead we get slanted surveys (that ignored the 16% of the population of Vancouver who are 64 years old or older) and attacks against anyone who questioned the validity of any of the engineer's or councilor's opinions.

Shame on the process, shame on the councilors and shame engineers who bent over backwards to make Hornby Street a reality when there were better options available.

If they read this:

Ms. Reimer stop twittering in council. It's disrespectful.

Mr. Meggs I live across the street from the little old lady you attacked as being a liar. Her building has 24 hour concierge. I challenge you to approach her front door and not find one of the staff there. And further, I live across the street from her and I didn't get any city notifications either. And our building IS DEFINITELY not on the admail list, because we get every other bulk city mailing.

Your type sickens me. Calling people's emotions "theatrics" and attacking little old ladies. This is what defined the implementation of the Hornby Bike Lane. Instead of healthy debate and logical reasonable solutions. God help us. Bring on November 2011.

I rode my bike into work today: Burrard to Hornby to Dunsmuir. The bike lanes, as they are, are great.

I noticed that as of this morning there are traffic signs up giving notice that construction will begin on the Hornby bike lane in October.

Nice to know that the mayor and councillors didn't decide this one before last night's public hearing. Nice to know all those people, who put hours into preparing, then waited until late in the evening to be heard, were actually being listened to. Nice to know 'public consultation' is alive and well under Gregor's administration.

Let the lawsuits begin.

I haven't been in favor of the bike lanes since the beginning, but I felt that they were a forgone conclusion from the beginning, and that they would never be a "trial", but rather a permanent part of the city once they were in place.

I will admit, however, that I don't know whether the bike lanes will have a negative or neutral affect on the businesses on Hornby...only time will tell. I do hope (for the taxpayers sake) that they turn out to be a success.

At the end of the day, however, what I hope everyone remembers from the debate, is the arrogance and attitude of this city council and mayor. It's really been their arrogance and attitude that have turned me off the bike lanes from the start, and it's not surprising to see that this behavior continued right until the 11th hour of the debate.

Cadman wasn't present for this council vote, either.

How predictable.

What about the $28 Million deficit (please correct me if that's wrong)? How is this project going to help balance the budget?

I heard a rumour their next idea is a COVERED bike lane - this is getting crazy. I think the province needs to step in and suspend this council and launch an investigation.

$3.2M bucks for a bike lane trial, while Burrard Bridge is falling apart at the seams. Why was this money not put into upgrading the Burrard Bridge? IT'S FALLING APART AND LANDING ON PEOPLE'S HEADS below!!! It's been two years since Vision took over, and they have done nothing to seismically upgrade the Burrard Bridge. I guess that kind of investment isn't "sexy" or "green" enough.

As for the arrogance and condescending comments from yesterday's council, quite astounding. I think the NPA or any other civic party merely needs to take video clips from that council meeting and run them as tv commercials. If the people saw how council was run yesterday, they would vote these buggers out in a heartbeat. In particular, Reimer and Louie should hang their heads in shame.

What happened to all of the uproar over the Dunsmuir bike lanes? Chicken little syndrome?

I am 50/50 on the Hornby lanes, but this seems to be much ado about nothing, part 2.

Better idea:

That large digital billboard at the base of the Burrard Street bridge - you know, the one above the bike lane....

FYI - hope to see a good turn out. This Max will be there with bells on!

NPA Pub Night
Thursday 7, October
17:30 (5:30 pm)
Bayside Lounge
(corner of Davie & Denman)
Best Western Sands Hotel
1755 Davie Street
Vancouver, British Columbia

Bring your friends and those interested in some fun and City politics!


"What about the $28 Million deficit (please correct me if that's wrong)? How is this project going to help balance the budget?"

IIRC, one of the statistics quoted by City staff yesterday was the projection that a $4 million investment in cycling infrastructure can deliver $125 million in savings in other areas. That's a pretty good ROI by anyone's measure and would obviously help the city's bottom line in the long run. I'd suggest you contact them directly for additional information to see if it can address your concerns.


"..And even Suzanne Anton seems powerless to create a good argument against the city hall establishment..."

Whether she had the opportunity to make a good argument or not, she still voted with Vision on the bike lane in the end.

Talk - Action = Zero

Remember that you're present NPA is no better than Vision.

Vision may be arrogant asswipes, but they are consistent in who they are.

Suzanne fumbles through a mock-feigned opposition, and then votes in lock step with Vision.

At least you can trust that Vision are a bunch of ideological pigs.

Right now, the NPA has no set policies, and lets their members vote how they please, dragging the party down with them. [For reference see Suzanne Anton]

So on the one hand you can trust Vision to continue their destruction, on the other, you can't trust that the NPA or its candidates will do anything differently....considering they are voting lock step with Vision.

The new phrase for everyone to plant in their head about Suzanne is:

Talk - Action = Zero

Next time someone tells me that Suzanne listens to people, please remember that listening doesn't mean doing.


When I finally pick myself up off the floor from laughing my ass off, I may take you up on that Chris.

I see you found your cape.


You are slow to the show today - sleep in?

There is a $28 million deficit - which does not include what happens over the next while with the Olympic Village.

In actuality, this bike lane is costing more than the infrastructure cost of $3.2 million (and I still can't fathom how you can spend that amount of money banging up some concrete barriers, painting some lines and throwing down some plants...) but there will residual loss of income through the loss of the parking meter revenue - which is somewhere between $1 - $2 million per year.

My guess, we will see an increase in metered parking throughout the city within the next 6 -- 8 months in order to compensate for this loss.

As for the suggestion of $125 in savings in other areas? What other areas? Where are these 'supposed' savings coming from? - Lord, I would LOVE to see how they come up with that number.


I know you and I have butted heads about Anton's actions in the past - but I am with you on this one.

@Max @Glen I too want to weigh in on Anton's performance. If this woman thinks she ever had a hope in hell of becoming mayor, it was completely wiped out with her vote last night.

She's as wishy washy as they come and does the NPA and Vancouver a huge disservice.

I'll be supporting the NPA in the next election, but I won't be putting a tick beside Anton. Not after what she did to the business community yesterday. She's an embarrassment along with her Vision colleagues, who at the moment, are very hard to tell apart.

"You are slow to the show today - sleep in?"

I was waiting for an opportunity to offer a constructive comment. Pearls before swine apparently.

Heckle away folks.

"Where are these 'supposed' savings coming from? - Lord, I would LOVE to see how they come up with that number."

Dail 311. Ask for Jerry Dobrovolny.

Chris wasn't sleeping in, he was too busy writing dozens of pro-cyclist comments (a.k.a. propaganda) on Frances Bula's blog all morning.

Don't you know, his union contract only allows him to spread the gospel on one blog at a time. Then take a 15 minute break.

Chris, we all welcome your divine intervention to enlighten us all on why we are so evil. Time to put on the robes and begin the sermon.


No offense, but Vision's track record of reporting factual stats is about good as their track record for public consultation.


Go take a wonder under Burrard Bridge. You will notice that the seismic upgrade was done a few years ago. The city is currently designing the repairs for the rest of the bridge including the sidewalks and the railings. I expect they will complete the design and have cost estimates ready soon.

People said the Burrard lanes would cause gridlock. They did not. Same with Dunsmuir. We'll see with Hornby. People don't have a very good track record.

Perhaps you'll remember this website's very own offshoot called "Gregor's Gridlock" . Whatever happened to that website?


the statistics on ROI on cycling investment can be found in numerous places outside of 12th and Cambie if you doubt the honesty and professionalism of the Engineering Dept.


From what I know, $32 million was set aside by the previous NPA Council for the repairs to the bridge.

That fact that Vision firstly denied that deterioration to the bridge was happening and that is just so coincided with the weight from the bike lane barriers was curious.

But to then put off the repairs until AFTER the vote on keeping the Burrard bike lane was lazy and stupid.

They will not be able to work on the bridge over the winter months - which means, further deterioration and and eventual increase in cost.

But, let's bang up the Horny bike lane first.

Priorities after all.

@Richard. I just loved your performance at city council yesterday. I was the guy sitting behind you in the white shirt as you were giggling with laughter over your latest coup. Great job lobbying the politicians yet again for your latest cause.

As for the Burrard Bridge, who are you kidding. Only a few months ago the engineering department had to put up netting to catch falling debris from the bridge. This was widely reported in the media. Are they liars?

When will you take off your Vision blindfold and come to the realization your political pals are not the second coming of Christ. Money spent on this bike lane is money not spent to updgrade the bridge. Simple as that.

The fact Vision have had two full years to do this and have done nothing speaks volumes to their priorities. Chickens and bike lanes, more chickens and more bike lanes. Meanwhile, our infrastructure is crumbling and not being repaired.

Richard if you could strip away your ideology for a moment and work for the broader good, we just might agree on a few more issues for a change.

And I pull this from another topic on this site:

Posted October 5, 2010 by SF:

Check out this one, posted by him (Quinlan) just an hour ago:

"CoV engineer Jerry Dobrovolny points out it is council policy not to increase road capacity.

@Richard. Are you a "conversational miner" like another blogger we know? Are you being paid to help sprinkle your cycling fairy dust on this blog? Just who pays you to do this? Will you come clean with us? We're dying to find out the truth.


Irrelevant to the discussion. You question the ROI on bike lanes and the honesty of the staff presenting that information. I'm telling you there's lots of places to find the information.

You should be googling for that instead of old Twitter posts.

@Chris. Nice deflection. Did you and Richard learn that at cycling lobbyist school?

And your comparison is apples and oranges. The Hornby St merchants are hoping there is gridlock. This would at least mean people are still showing up to shop. Not many merchants to be found mid-span on Burrard Bridge. Good try.

"Are you a "conversational miner" like another blogger we know? Are you being paid to help sprinkle your cycling fairy dust on this blog?"

And here we go:

"Darn, they keep using facts and logic. What can we do to discredit the people we disagree with?"

Weak. Sauce.


Two different people named Chris in this thread. Try to make sure you fling poo in the right direction. It can get confusing once we're all covered in it.

As Mayor Gregor Robertson would say "don't let the facts get in the way of a good bike lane."

Does anybody actually believe the mayor when he says 2000 cyclists now use the Dunsmuir bike lane on a daily basis. How many of those people were riding their bikes on other downtown roads, but have been diverted to Dunsmuir? Therefore these aren't "new" cyclists as the lobbyists claim. Anyone can play with the stats to help build their case when they need to.

Hi Ian:

That's a very good point. If you watch the online video of yesterday's council meeting you will see that that very observation is made by City staff during their presentation. They're not claiming that the increase is solely due to new cyclists.


This 'tweet' was put out my Kevin Quinlan 2 days ago.

It speaks to the agenda of city hall.

Actually CTV and CKNW both do. They did counts and confirmed that the city's bicycle numbers for Dunsmuir seem reasonable.

"...the city's numbers seem to hold up."

Every time I re-read Gregor's inaugural council address back in 2008, I laugh and laugh and laugh about what a bunch of dupes he though people were. And then I realize how badly things have gone since then, and I feel like crying. Remember when his big platform was ending homelessness by 2015? I wonder what the millions spent on bike lanes could do to help accomplish that?

No, are you?

Anyway, how about sticking to debating the facts rather than making baseless attacks against the messenger.

Two weeks ago I was walking down the street, when a young couple passed me. Girl was walking and her guy was on his bike no helmet.
I started chatting with them, as we approached a spot where there was a bike counter across the road, the young man rode off the sidewalk, road over the counter and then back onto the sidewalk.... I asked him why he had done that and his answer.....well I want my number to be counted.... so much for an accurate count...


The previous council delayed the repairs to the bridge for three years while they spent $2 million on the design of wider sidewalks for the bridge. If they would have gone ahead with the trial, the bridge would have been repaired already and we would have saved the $2 million.

As Max said "From what I know, $32 million was set aside by the previous NPA Council for the repairs to the bridge." so it is obvious that the money for the Hornby Bike Lanes is not impacting the repair of the bridge.

WHY doesn't anyone cover the fact that Burrard from Drake to Pacific
will now have its very own "separated bike lane"?

This will cause a HUGE traffic snarl. All parking on the west side of
Burrard (from Drake to Pacific) will be removed, bus stop will be
relocated and-- worst of all!! there will be no right turns allowed!!

This means drivers will have to either jump in a lane to go west---
OR cross over the bridge , even tho they didn't want to. Believe me,
going from 3 lanes to 2-- especially during rush hour will cause
a HUGE mess.

PLEASE cover this part of the story!!!!

Richard, you have got to be kidding. Did you actually watch those news reports? They were conducted on a nice warm dry sunny summer day. And they were not a 24 hour count of actual cyclists. Nope. They were conducted in smaller intervals throughout the day.

So pleeeeease don't trot out unscientific media reports as the basis to support your 2000 per day number. Everyone knows that number is plumped up by city staff who are afraid to tell council the truth for fear they will lose their jobs. That's what you get when you have a politicized public service. Didn't they teach you that at the VACC lobbyist workshops?

Okay - I truly hope you are kidding...


This 'tweet' was put out my Kevin Quinlan 2 days ago.

It speaks to the agenda of city hall."

Absolutely irrelevant Max. You're questioning the facts surrounding the benefits of investing in cycling infrastructure. You can find those facts outside of City Hall which corroborate their perspective. Lots and lots of sources for that. Why aren't you looking for a counter-argument to the facts instead of making baseless allegations?

So do you, or don't you agree this Vision council has had 2 years to upgrade the bridge and done nothing.

With all due respect, I don't need a history lesson regarding the previous NPA regime's faults. I need to know what you and your Vision pals have done to upgrade the bridge to ensure safety and security? I'm waiting for a response to this question, rather than your continued partisan rants against the NPA.

PS Gawd help you when this civic government changes hands as you have clearly aligned yourself with one side of the political spectrum. I think chapter 6.7 of your lobbyist handbook says this is not a good thing. I would suggest you reread it.

PSPS here is a link to the cycling lobbyist handbook I'm referring to

Vision has declared ideological war on taxpayers and small business owners.

Two points:

1. I am not the "Ian" who has been previously posting in this thread.

2. For anyone who is interested, the actual data showing cycle use on Dunsmuir is available:

On my read of it, the 2000 / day post bike lane figure is supported, with the qualification that it does not include weekends, which have a lower usage. This is set out on the web page.

The original City reports of an increase from 500 / day to 2000 / day is not supported by the data.

On my reading of it, the only "apples to apples" comparison available on the data shows an increase from the average daily use for bikes on Dunsmuir increased from 596 pre-bike lane to 1389 post bike lane, an increase of 793 / day.

You are right on that one Ian.

I have been on Dunsmuir at varying times of the day (Railway Club after work...:)
and have passed zero cyclists.

But can`t you all wait to here the first post of fantastic ridership numbers on the new Hornby lane come spring.....

FYI - the weather people are suggesting we will have a rather harsh winter this year.

@Max. Don't you know? The data for the increase in Hornby St cyclists due to the separated bike lane has already been collected, collated and drafted by City staff. It's a done deal.

Once these stats are released they will demonstrate it has been a tremendous success. What a great city we live in.


You have demonstrated true `vision`....:)

Chris Keam,
On the 'talk gregor to us' post, you named Glissando the 'patron saint of City Caucus'. Funny, only I see you all over the place here too! Glissy at least entertains us. You, not so much. Anyway, he loved it so much that he left you a note (same post) and dedicated the 'Some Like it Hot' trailer to you...LOL It reads:
'Dedicated to Chris, only the other Saxophone Player on France's Band, on board the Vision’s Train Wreck, lead by conductor Gregor First Tuba, under the direct supervision of Joel, Kapellmeister of the Second Coming.'
Funnier. And bang on!
Now. Re. last night farce, circus, name it.
My advice. No one should ever go to address these Vision Vancouver jerks in Council at City Hall. Ever. Waste of time. your time. They get paid, how about you? But, if you do, at least go and have a Party! Bring provisions, eat, drink, talk on your Cell, text, twit, go in and out of chambers, call out your friends from the balcony from the ground floor. Use Vuvuzelas if you may. It's a soccer match anyways. And it's fixed. Now, regarding Engineering's dept wish to have the bike lane trial for four seasons, I heard that Robertson was caught, again, saying 'Oh yeah, all summer seasons!' I also heard that together with all Vision councilors he went to his office to dance on the Kumbaya ring-tone,played on Reimer's Blackberry.
Possible. Considering.

depends how you define gridlock. Try turning left off Pacific onto Howe during busy times - used to be one or two car wait - now it's 8 - 10 or more. Try exiting onto Burrard southbound from Pacific eastbound. Count the cars backed up at Howe and Beach, Hornby and Beach four way stops. It's not LA freeway gridlock but it is damn slow.
What really irks me as someone who would walk south from downtown over the bridge is that I now cross Pacific - TWICE, Burrard TWICE - a total of more than 20 lanes of traffic that I now have to cross to get from Howe and Pacific to Broadway and Fir. when the lane first opened I made the mistake of walking south along Chris Keam's precious bike only path. I was called every name imaginable and told to f*** off by half a dozen (ie 75%) of the crank heads on the path and one dude - likely Chris or Meggsy - actually dared me in a game of chicken. Nice group. Does anyone think Chris Keam or any other cycle-head give a rats banana about the affect on pedestrians? The cycling lobby is an embarrassment to Vancouver and they have the perfect leader in Gregor.

What a teriffic event. While green sentiments are a dime a dozen, it takes real courage to put your pavement to new uses in support of your policies.

Hornby's bike lane is a far bigger thing than it seems. As with any type of network, the value and power increases exponentially with the degree of interconnection. Hornby will connect Burrard, two Seawall and the Dunsmuir bike lanes. It will multiply the value of all of those several-fold, in addition to being useful all on its own.

Way to go, City of Vancouver. Keep it up.

an article just appeared on Vancouver Sun site....Translink adding additional trains to accommodate cyclists....coincidence??

@ SR.

I have spoken out about the the potential traffic tie-ups & did again last night @ Council. Although the City Engineer replied to some of my comments [location of a loading bay...] I do not recall that he addressed my concern about the 1 lane only for 3 blocks from Beach to Davie &, 1 block from Robson to Georgia. In addition to traffic snarls & resulting increased pollution, this condition is dangerous because it prevents emergency vehicular access - where do you pull off to allow the ambulance through? I couldn't deal with the Pacific & Burrard aspects of this because of a lack of time but, you are quite right.

What we're witnessing here is full sized, real life experimentation, including the viability of small businesses. We do have the ability to assess such situations & predict with reasonable accuracy whether or not they're going to work. This Council apparently doesn't believe in such nonsense. Incidentally, they've also got a hiring freeze on the Planning Department which I understand is @ 60% of its normal compliment - making predicting & planning kind of difficult.

I suppose we'll find out if this real time experiment is going to work soon.....

you bring up an excellent point emergency vehicles!!! would be interesting to have some of these folks respond with their opinions on this subject, does this make their job more difficult or well as our safety.

The new bike lanes lanes are wide enough for emergency vehicles to go on. And bikes can easily get out of the way to let them through. Not so easy for a typical street filled with just cars.

Alex P,
are you a first responder, or part of the cycling coalition....that information would give me a clearer picture as to the accuracy of your opinion...I have spoken with many firefighters that don't agree with your statement..

"Does anyone think Chris Keam or any other cycle-head give a rats banana about the affect on pedestrians?"

That's low-hanging fruit:

"Pedestrians first. That’s the city’s official position. Yet, walkers are now to be banned from one side of the bridge. Anyone wishing to walk from the southeast side of False Creek to the northeast side on the Burrard Bridge will now have to cross more than twenty lanes of road to make the trip. Currently, they needn’t ever set foot on asphalt. If this is how we improve walking in the city I hope we never find the money or will to really improve cycling infrastructure!"

"it would be interesting to have some of these folks respond with their opinions on this subject, does this make their job more difficult or well as our safety."

Not only can emergency responders use the now-approved trial bike lane on Hornby, there are gaps in the barriers on Burrard and Dunsmuir that allow emerg. vehicles to bypass traffic on those routes too. I think they may have been put in for exactly that purpose, but I don't know that for sure.

Certainly that issue was raised yesterday during discussion of the Hornby lane and City staff confirmed that the Hornby lane is not only wide enough for emergency vehicles, but the two way lane is arguably an advantage over one-way bike lanes in that regard, as they (one way lanes) aren't wide enough to work as an emergency bypass route.

Finally! Happily, another nail in the coffin of the automobile! Thank you Gregor!

Why do all you whiney selfish jerks in your cars complain all the time about the very folks who are trying to save the environment you've been destroying every time you turn the key to your pollution belching engines? I for one am tired of having to ride among all the smoke, while having to risk my life sharing a lane with cars. Face it. If you complain about cyclists, then you're a dinosaur. You don't belong in OUR city. It's for the young, hip responsible generation. You're just unhappy because were condemning and refuse to accept your outdated wasteful way of life. Gregor is doing the right thing. Maybe you'll get fed up and stay in your uber class single family land wasting homes out in the burbs burning up energy trying to heat it.

You've ruled the day for far too long. it's our burden to undo all your wrongs. Do you realize there are hundreds, if not thousands of species disappearing from our planet every day? Why? because of YOU! Name one good thing that came from the automobile.

Me? I'll stick with my bike. It may be a small part I play by choosing sustainable responsible transportation unlike you, but at least I can sleep at night knowing I'm doing my part. For the rest of you selfish people who live the "white picket fence, 2 kids, and a pet" American fable.....This is Canada!!!!

Gregor's wonderful plan for ALL of us is commendable.

Let's deal with Social Housing the same way. Force out these capitalist fat cats for the rest of us! Tear down these old run down, irresponsible single family homes for the rich, and shift development to high density. it's the only logical way.


Thanks for letting me know about that post Higgins. I missed it as we moved onto other topics. Latin isn't my strong suit, but I love that movie. Although I haven't worn a dress in ages. Hmmm, Halloween + shapely cycling calves.... I'll give it some thought. :-)

are you saying your parents, grandparents don't deserve to live in your city? I'm just guessing but with an attitude like yours did your dog run away?

No, I am not a first responder. This is just what was reported by Mr. Dobrovolny last night at the council meeting, plus the fact that large delivery trucks drove in the Dunsmuir lane before the new bollards were placed. I would be interested to hear what your firefighter friends have said about the separated lanes however if you could please share so I can revise my opinion.

Talk to them for Mr. D, he is not in a position to give an honest opinion right now, if he did he would be escorted out the door like anyone else that doesn't bend over to Gregor

Please note I requested to hear from first responders....

They have the right by default. I can't blame them for their mistakes. I can only point them out. They get it. BTW...I don't own a dog. it's a waste of our natural resources to feed them. look at the global pet food market. It's a multi- billion dollar "industry" that involves the slaughter of innocent animals, and the release of co2 churning over farmland and breeding the feed animals, but back on point. I long for the day when ALL public roads are rightfully turned over to cyclists. Many people say we don't contribute to roads, but that's an asinine ill advised statement. We pay every day through capitalist taxes. The roads in all honesty belong more to us than subsidized drivers, yet we have to abide by the same rules designed for an outdated transportation method.

so you don't own a dog, slam pet owners, roads were built for bikes, your parents aren't one of those dinosaurs ...hummmm
out of curiosity what is your position on Pot?

"Why do all you whiney selfish jerks in your cars complain all the time about the very folks who are trying to save the environment you've been destroying every time you turn the key to your pollution belching engines?"

I hope smug gits like jimmy wheelspoke never have to deal with any physical incapacity that doesn't allow them to cycle. Some of us are required to use a car to get from point A to point B. Maybe we would have liked to have ridden a bike but that choice was taken from us.

Of course given the tone of that well known young, hip urbanite perhaps I should have done the decent thing removed myself from the environs of Vancouver because I obviously no longer belong to the uber fit and elitist citizens that have the exclusive rights to occupy this land mass.

You don't have to agree with me people, but you should get on board with the "now" So you say you can't ride a bike.....Mmmmmmmm....... How about an electric scooter?
My views on pot..... Legalize, legalize.
On pets.....Ya it's a capitalist scheme designed to make selfish people feel better about themselves.'s true.
Back on point....
If you people had any real issue at all, you would have shown up at the city council meeting last night.....but in reality, most of the fat cat business people chose to opt out of showing up. Gregor and council gave plenty of notice and consultation in advance. This tells me that deep down, they understand the situation, and realized they were wrong to question Gregor's brilliance. Good on them. They realize now that at worst, they may have to move. Maybe to a more lucrative location. So who's hurting? Only those who lack business sense. progress marches on. And those recently vacated stores could maybe become an ethical bean coffee house. it's wonderful to sip a coffee and people watch. Remember the Olympic street closures? That was utopia! Imagine that on every street every day!
You know......every time Critical Mass descends on their mission, it surprises me how many more motorists start cheering for us. One guy even got out of his car, and gave me a high five!
Every time we reach someone like that, It scores another point for the good we're doing for all the workaday drivers shackled to their car prisons. The sooner you all realize that that's all a car is, the sooner you too will seek the wonderful daily adventure that is cycling.
Every time I can cruise through a stop sign, look back and see a car still stuck at the light, I think what a bunch of pathetic morons, idling their money away.

yes Jimmy, you know so much....
my scooter has 3 wheels it replaces my legs, I don't drive a car,I can't ride on sidewalks because idiots like you are riding high, down the sidewalk .... Legalize pot.... so you can ride high without a helmet and ipod ear buds so you are unable to hear the sirens of emergency vehicles, or do you expect them to carry their gear on their backs on bicycles to your house that is burning down...or that heart attack your parents are having.....

I almost do they make those environmentally wonderful bikes....would that be in a factory....hypocrite!

I have no bone to pick with you George.
I don't ride high. I don't ride at all really. I'm just glad I got your reaction, and maybe had a few others shaking their head.
In fact.......Jimmy Spokewheel doesn't even exist.
He is a parody of the selfish, arrogant,dismissive idiots we encounter every day as drivers, pedestrians, and business owners who think they speak for the good of all of us, when really it's all about their interests.
I wanted to stir the pot a bit. Sorry to offend any of you, but I really wanted to get a reaction. Get some fire back in our bellies.
I didn't want to read another "Oh well...what are ya gonna do" hands in pockets answers.

Take last nights council meeting for instance. How many had applied to speak, and how many showed up? I was devastated.The numbers were miniscule.
It made me very sad for the city I once loved. It's become the stomping ground of holier than though idiots like my alter ego "Jimmy" and social engineers like our beloved council.
When people respond on these forums with "well, the whole coucil voted in favor", well...that's true, but look at the selection of them. Predominantly left wing socialist leaning.
That's why it was voted in favor. There is little balance in City Hall.
Basically, what Gregor says goes.

BTW......How's everyone's chickens doing?
sorry again for ruffling feathers, but it was admittedly a bit fun to step out of my rather conservative persona.

Thank you for your really pushed my buttons, I agree with your frustration...sadly I personally think many didn't show up because, as with everything Vision, it is a done deal in advance of any really got me :-) Sorry if I was rough on your alter you have a dog, or are you a cat guy?

haha! Right you are George my boy!
2 dogs in a lineage of several deceased long ago, but still in my heart.
It wasn't hard to come up with that stuff! I work with a lot of the 20 something "hip, young, new world renaissance men and women", and here this banter every day. As a person only one generation apart from these folks, I find it startling in either how brainwashed these people are, or just how callous society has become in general. I love my family, hold down a great career, enjoy my car, spoil my dogs (haha) , but when I take a coffee break at work (Timmy's...not ethical bean!)Talking about my car, or the house I'm planning to buy in Chilliwack, I'm often interrupted and lectured by some junior pantywaist kid how I represent "the old guard of societal waste and excess".
My response.
I'm living my life.....When you've lived half as long as me, then tell me what I'm doing wrong.

The complete sham of Vision's consultation on the Hornby Street bike lane was revealed to me this evening as I watched city crews installing signs on routes into downtown warning of delays on Hornby St due to bike lane construction. We all know city crews aren't so efficient that they whipped these signs up today. The bike lane was a done deal and Robertson & Co. had no intention of listening to the citizens who made presentations at the meeting last night. Just another reminder that the Vision gang will steamroll their agenda through, no matter what the public wants.

You've actually handed your opponents an early Christmas gift James. Now all a moderate advocate has to do to disavow the statements of intemperate or extreme commenters is mention the 'Spokewheel' factor and raise the very real possibility that what's being done is another 'false flag' attempt at fomenting anger and overreaction.

Did you not notice how quickly public opinion shifted toward the side of demonstrators when police infiltrated a peaceful protest earlier in the year and tried to incite violence?

Tactically, you're a day late. Strategically, owning up to your charade was a terrible idea.

Joyeux Noël

Actually Chris
you and I had this out I believe last week when I stated my grandchild and I couldn't ride your bike perhaps can tell me where those healthy bikes are made, and how they are transported....factory, truck???

Sorry George I don't see the connection between individuals deliberately misrepresenting themselves and the manufacturing sector.

Whatever floats your boat Chris.
Trust me....I'm sure they could come up with far better spin than anything inspired by little old me.
My strategy? To come clean after a few posts, and debate. I came clean early because I saw I hurt George and Patar.
You mean "Gregor for Prime Minister!!!" and I cruise through stop signs" wern't a slight clue that I may be pulling yer ....uh...chain?
My comments were sadly real Chris, though obviously over the top in their succession. I hear them often, and in my mind, this will only create an even more Us vs.Them mentality between drivers ans cyclists.
Recently on a local call in show, a cycling advocate came down to say "endorse the bike lane because we actually have more money to spend in shops than the drivers who would be kept away from them due to the barrier because of their lifestyle choices."
What a load!
So the BMW, Lexus, and Jag owners don't have money to blow on high end goods, but cyclists somehow have more to do so? Guess those car payments are killing them.
It came down to a typical Us vs. Them common denominator p*ssing match.....Again.
I'm not really phased Chris. I simply wanted to see if someone would react to the ridiculous commentary that some of these nutjobs stand for, and council seems to pander too, given the meager turn out last night.
A %*@!'ing NPA Hack!

Sorry James, but it would be pointless to debate with you about any of these issues. You've made it clear that you are willing to be a 'sock puppet' and I don't have any inclination to engage in that kind of thing. It's one of the reasons I choose to use my own name. I think that whether you agree or disagree with me, at least one is certain who they are dealing with.


Sorry.... it's interesting Chris, that you take issue with me being truthful of my intentions, yet you took NO issue with my nutjob remarks when I was in the guise of "Jimmy Spokewheel".
Tell me....When you read those comments I made, did it make you feel like I was speaking for you?
Like I was speaking up for Mayor Gregor who ran the traffic sign and almost got killed by a bus?
Just curious.
BTW. Sorry if these posts offended you. That was not my intention. it was as i said , to stir the pot. Be the devil's advocate.
Sometimes people don't come clean in their responses if they know you are expecting a certain answer.
Hence...Jimmy Spokewheel" Your unfriendly neighborhood scumbag.

Thanks for the edufication Chris.

Wouldn't the appropriate term be
Happy Holiday, or XMas in this politically correct charged climate?
I mean. for all us sock puppets out there.
I subscribe to no party, and do not follow the status quo. Do I prefer fairness and real consultation to the masses? Yes.
if that's a sock puppet, then sew me on some shiny button eyes.

"Do I prefer fairness and real consultation to the masses?"

Clearly you prefer subterfuge and deception James. There's nothing fair about that.

Chris, I know you like to have the last word on any thread so, I'll give you another opportunity re: emergency vehicles. I, as the Engineer said @ Council last nite have been thoroughly briefed on the design of the bike lanes by his staff. There was no mention of an emergency vehicle strategy. I suspect they're making it up as they go as they have for the rest of this sorry process.

I have designed emergency vehicle geometrics on many projects & from the rationales presented here I am not convinced they will work any more than the firemen have been.

Geez Bill, you're taking me away from the work I've been putting off all day so I can argue on the Internet. I believe it was the second speaker of the day, a Mr. David Prior if I recall correctly, that brought up the issue of emergency vehicle access and at that time he was assured that the bike lane is wide enough for emergency vehicles.

Here's my tweets for that part of the meeting. Note that the speaker corrected the record at the end of his discussion with council to point out he was representing himself only not the CFIB (was a member of the organization only) and the entries should be read from bottom to top for the chronological order, as is done with the posts here at CC.

I can't speak to your opinions about whether or not it's part of a comprehensive plan for emergency situations, but that's when and how it was discussed yesterday. With your experience in local politics I suspect you have a better sense of the way those consultations are handled and whether it's the usual process to include the Fire Department in traffic planning.


# Speaker clarifies that he's not a CFIB rep but only a member 11:40 AM Oct 5th via Twitter for iPhone

# Staff tell CFIB guy that emergency responders can drive down bikelane because it's wide enuff 11:39 AM Oct 5th via Twitter for iPhone

# CFIB street will change dramatcically we support bike lanes but not piecemeal approach 11:33 AM Oct 5th via Twitter for iPhone

# CFIB claims paramedics concerned about bldg access more parking lost as development continues
11:31 AM Oct 5th via Twitter for iPhone

Lighten up , Chris. People are going to think activists don't have a sense of humour!

The light dawned for me with the ethical beans. I have some twenty something skateboarder neighbours with just that attitude, unaffected by living in a house bought for them by their mommy.

James, I wish you had put that somewhere like the Tyee, it's scary to think of the support Jimmy would have got!


That twitter exchange proves nothing.

And WHY are city council members tweeting or twittering during meetings?

Many of them, especially Reimer, have the attention span of a gnat to begin with - they should be paying attention and not wasting tax payers' time.

Again, shows blatant disrespect and you wonder why turn outs are low.

He's a sock puppet David. It deserves derision.

If the sock were on the other foot and I invented a persona to come on this site and make some of the outlandish anti-cycling statements one reads regularly online and then outed myself and just having a little fun with y'all as commenters praised me for my courage to 'tell it like it is' there'd be a shoving match by the Caucus-ites simply to get in line to take a number and tear a strip off me for being a liar, deceptive, etc, etc and while I respect your posts and comments as a rule, I think your remarks in this regard to lighten up and have a sense of humour are bad advice.



Oh Geez. Read it again Max. Those are my tweets. Pretty sure I'm allowed to use an electronic device during a council meeting. I don't think the building was cleared for landing or take-off at the time.

Another great Post CC.

Thanks David. Some folks take things way too seriously. I deliberately peppered those comments, and made them inflammatory to get people asking the question "Could this guy be for real?" The answer is yes, he is for real. Not in name, but I have been lectured in just those very same inflammatory holier than though terms by people who think they have all the answers, and most of them are of the two wheeled persuasion.
Chris made the observation that I deliberately misrepresented myself. To put it as C.K. has in the past....Duh! He also pointed out not using my actual name in those posts, as he does.'s blatantly obvious that Mr.Keam really does like his name splattered every where. I've looked at his creds. Very impressive BTW Chris. Good on you for being on just about every Vancouver oriented blog. Good exposure.
If there's one thing I've learned in social sciences, is that there are two kinds of people who get involved in public affairs. Those who fight, embrace, and head up/create programs for those they claim they are trying to help, and there are those who are merely trying to pad out their portfolio for future personal gain, driven by ego.
I'm not implying you are the latter Chris, but by simply dismissing others comments who don't necessarily agree with your activist point of view, or peppering your posts with pompous, inane observations, or attack posters with your self described "Dry wit", one wonders what your intentions are. If it's to simply bring cycling further to the forefront of public awareness, again.....good for you. I dare say however, that this is the wrong approach.
You can attack my methods, call me names like "sock puppet", (Still trying to figure who would have their hand up my butt, as I have no political affiliations or leanings.) but dare I say that the association of the pompous, arrogant cyclist to these bike lanes, and this council are a big factor in how people view them, or are drawing their conclusions.
I have no issue with these lanes, or cyclists in general. I used to be one till losing mobility after an injury to my back.
I do take issue with the supposed "consultation" process, and lack of will to modify the plan no matter how slight.

I actually hope you keep the jimmy spokewheel moniker.....
will you be attending the NPA pub night?

haha! Actually George, I will attend Pub Night, but it won't be the NPA's, or any other political party's. I'm a casual observer, who sometimes just get's dumbfounded at the issues in civic politics. Sometimes,, it just get's so rediculous, and we get our Jockey's in such a bunch over silly things. The bike lanes themselves...In actuality, they tend to help traffic over time. As I said, I have no issue with a dedicated bike lane if all options are considered to create the least amount of disruption to existing businesses.
Where I find flaw is this supposed consultation. If there had been adequate consultation, then there would be no uproar, and this issue would be embraced.
Obviously there was not.
I am glad I didn't really offend anyone on here. It wasn't my intention. It was simply a poke in the ribs. I'm tired of seeing true democracy being piddled away with defeatist attitude.
Simply look at voter turnout or turnout at this meeting to illustrate my point.
I posted those comments as "Jimmy Spokewheel"; an annoying self absorbed know it all with a egocentric agenda to get a reaction. Plain and simple. Was it deception? No more than the spin from your average everyday politician sadly. The more people feel unimportant to the process, the less they feel the obligation to vote. Sometimes it takes an over the top jackass like "Jimmy" to shake people out of their fog. He doesn't speak for all cyclists, but he does speak for a great deal of the militants who have turned this into the circus it is. Resorting to status comparisons, and wagging their finger of shame at motorists and business owners for not embracing a simply poorly proposed plan.
To Chris, if I took the spotlight away from you briefly, feel secure in the fact that you've more than made up for my little fifteen minutes of fame with your trouncing of my true intentions in your posts. You're back on top big guy!

I'm in the same place you are politically...I also like to raise a little He** that's why I responded to jimmy so ferociously...
I asked only because I wanted to meet your alter ego...he was great!!


A couple of clarifications are in order:

Sock puppet is the name popular culture has given to people who deliberately invent a fictitious character in order to argue a point online. It's considered poor form to do that. If sucks that you don't like the tag, but clearly that's a self-inflicted wound.

I don't have a problem with you not using your own name. That's everyone's individual decision. There's lots of good reasons not to use one's real name, and just as many to ensure people can connect the real-world individual and their online comments. Personally, I don't think it shows much character to call people names from beneath a pseudonym, but to each his or her own. (Not that you've called me any names. I'm speaking in general terms).

Not many people would accuse me of lacking a sense of humour, but I don't find the idea of someone deliberately inflaming opinion against cyclists to be much of a laughing matter. I won't bother to link to the numerous examples of cyclists hurt by people who have an irrational dislike for people on bikes, but it does happen, and comments such as you made under your Spokewheel guise only further poison the well. I hope you will contribute your obviously intelligent perspective without resorting to misrepresentation. I'm sure there are other, less divisive ways to motivate like-minded individuals to participate in the political process.


Point taken. a few clarifications are in order on my end too.
Firstly, "Sock Puppet" in my experience (pre-internet) is to be a pawn.
Thanks for the updated modern clarification. :-)
Secondly, I was about as avid a cyclist as there could be. I took part in many competitive events, weekend excursions Holiday trips, charity rides, and rode to and from work for twenty some years.
That all ended for me the day a car sped through a stop sign at the end of my lane and nearly died. The driver sped off, and I lay in a coma some 20 feet from my mangled road bike.
5 years of physical therapy, numerous surgeries, speech therapy later, I'm back in the swing, and for a time rode again until the damaged nerves in my back forced me to leave behind the pastime.....the way of life I loved.

Fast forward, there became a very different kind of cyclist I as a driver was sharing the road with. Sure, there's always been the guys that run stop signs, or generally didn't follow the very rules that keep all users safe, but a very militant aggressive biker began to emerge into the fray.

One particular incident that stands out in my mind was one morning I was riding into work. It was a rainy Summer morning after a long heat spell. The roads were very slick with that oily film that forms after a long hot stretch. I had the green, and on my right, a cyclist ran the stop sign making a very wide right turn in front of me when he himself jutted he bars in an attempt to maintain control. it was all I could do to avoid hitting him, and I made a successful stop....thank god. His response to the situation was to circle back and punch the hood of my car, give me the finger, then spit on my windshield. This was 100% his doing. I was travelling under the speed limit, managing to avoid a collision, and this was his response.
I was rattled by what had happened. I had a a nice big dent in my hood as a thank you, when he could have just waved.

I have also been at the mercy of Critical Mass. I've been stuck in my car and been made late for a very important family matter.
There are far better ways for cyclists to get their message across then inconveniencing and down right pissing off drivers.
I understand and commend your passion for cycling Chris. I doubt you are one of these knobs.
I just feel that the coziness that council seems to have this this particular brand of self absorbed advocacy which in a lot of cases is down right militant, is not helping the issue either.

On the issue of you stating that I used my moniker and comments to "get on here", I say this.
This is not the sole domain of the civic political hobbyist, or lobbyist/special interest group. It's a forum for anyone who has an opinion, be it radical, moderate, or inflammatory.
My intention was to get people talking. This is not some extreme left or right wing blog. If it were, then I would not have taken that approach.
That being said, that was not the first time I've been on here. Most of the time, I've simply stated observations, bantered with fellow posters, including you, and everything has been civil.
This whole issue has been blown out of proportion. I created "Jimmy" to illustrate this. Not to deceive people. If my intention was to deceive, then I would not have come forth....come out as it were. That was my intention to begin with.
In closing, Chris......Your'e an entertaining chap! I truly admire your conviction for the protection of your base interests.
The whole point of my posts, was to show precisely how overblown and ridiculous this whole situation is.
It was hands down handled very poorly.
All the best!
James Benoit

James, what a story! I don't normally like 'pot stirring' actually, but jimmy spokewheel was hilarious, he reminded me of Dave Spart in Private Eye. You should set up a blog where he shares his wit and wisdom, if you don't he'll be sadly missed.

Chris, the other day someone posting anonymously made it clear they know you. I've had the same experience and it's creepy. However you just shrugged it off with a smiley, which was the right choice.

This bike thing is going crazy. It's going to pass a hundred comments on two threads here. I don't cycle, also because of an injury, but my son does and I'm all for anything that makes it safer.

Opponents of Vision should be careful about this issue, it's ripe for exploitation. Given the multiplier effect of our (appalling) at large voting system, a single issue block vote going to a single party could be enough to wipe out the opposition.

so, now that the cyclist nazis have their precious bike lane, are they going to USE IT, and OBEY the Motor Vehicle ACT (remember Bike people, YOU are classified as a "vehicle") as it pertains to cyclists?

nahhhh didn't think cyclists will continue to break the laws, run lights, ride on sidewalks, run stop signs, ride without a helmet/fenders, lights or a white stripe on the rear fender as defined in the Motor Vehicle Act......

the taxpayers spoend 3+ million dollarsso you bike nazies can "feel safe" as you pedal, yet 90% of you STILL flaunt the laws and willnot use the new lane....

for shame....

former cyclist, now a pedestrian, thanks to a cyclist that ran me down on the SIDEWALK.

I chose to live close to work and my activities; this is my decision and I chose that because I did not want to be part of that "car society". I do not depend on cars. I do have my license and I'm part of the Car Cooperative (Auto network) which did surprise me how easy and convenient (many car in my neighborhood and I never have to worry about maintenance or parking (we have a permit to park everywhere it say "Permit Only" in Vancouver)

Now I'm far from being a hippy and I respect the rules on the road. I am professional fortunate that my employee offer shower in the building. It takes me less or the same time than a car to get to work and instead of taking my shower at home in the morning, I simply take it at work. And I'm not cheap; I simply choose to live simple (no big house that I use 10%, no big car of my own (I own 300 cars with other members of the coop), not too much material) and I love recycling what other do not need anymore, it got character and I don't have to worry about the "first scratches".

Now, why do I prefer separate bike lane to simple bike lane or to cycling street. Well have you been on the street cycling lately? It is terrifying some time and my only protection is my helmet (which I wear all the time because drivers can be crazy)

Finally, yes there is SOME cyclist that do wrong SOMETHINGS, but their is drivers that do WRONG most of the time. How many time to you see a driver do a u-turn in the middle of the intersection or in a small street in front of the round-about. You knew that was not just ILLEGAL but VERY DANGEROUS. Now that only the u-turns. How about going into a round about on the left? Yes I saw that number of time and often it's when I'm on the cycling streets. What else? How about a classic running a RED LIGHT. Now you are going to say that cyclist do that somethings.... yes that is unfortunate... but what real harm is the cyclist can do... I think you are mostly scare that you are going to hit him because you are coming in the intersection at 15km/h over the limit in a school zone. Next time that you are frustrate after a cyclist, take a moment and think "who is most dangerous?" and "why do I get angry... if not ROAD RAGE". Cyclist are human too.

I was 22 y.o. doing everything right on the road when a car is behind me (there was TWO full line on the left) and hunk; he finally got on the left pass me; but me; to stop brutally 50m later. And this incident happen a number of time after that, same scenario.

So why do you continue cycling you ask. Well, I have my reason (values, live locally, want to put that money in a better place, exercises...). I love cycling and I love how cyclists interact with each other. At stops/red lights, I have met number of cyclist and share conversation. I'm not in my bubble. I can tell other "Coming on your left" or most importantly, I can say "Thank You". I hate bells, whistle and mostly honking drivers. I'm a human living in a community full of great people.

My commute should never end in too crying at home after a drivers road rage attack. Yes, it happens. It's so scary when you are on your bike vulnerable and the drivers attack you.

For me, when you are in your car and you act stupid, I'm not facing a human...

Respect me when on the road. Please.

If you see that I done something stupid... come up gently and put your window down and tell me "Sorry, I couldn't see you when you came out of the parking lot; you took me by surprise and scare me. The last thing I want is to harm... could you be careful; I'll be careful too. Thank you" Two human sharing advice for the safety of all.

Thank you for reading and thank you for being a human in CONTROL of you car.

p.s. And to that person that said that I'm a nazi because I choose to bike instead of getting around in the metal box... well, I'm not.

Aren't you special, after reading your letter, I can tell you are much better than me, and not a bit judgmental I might add.

Bug off. Get a life man.

guess I made my point....

Look Jim...
At least you ADMIT you are deluded enough to believe riding a bike is saving the planet. I respect that and little else in what you have said here.

But please take note:
1 average car makes twice its weight in CO2 per year. 4 tons.

1 coal fired electric plant makes 10-20 Million tons CO2 per year.

China alone is building these coal fired plants at the rate of one per week. Do you see where we are going here?

Add to that, that China has surpassed the USA as the biggest consumer of automobiles on the planet.

So with your bike ( and ONLY if it takes a car off the road and doesnt poach a transit rider) appears to save some small amount of fuel. This fuel will not be sequestered, however, but will be converted to CO2 in a new American or Chinese car as the Chinese are dumping their bikes as fast as they can afford it and the Americans are still buying cars.

You may get a few hundred bikers per day helping you save the planet, but do the math..think big... if you could take EVERY SINGLE CAR REGISTERED IN METRO VANCOUVER off the road, ( 1.4 million says ICBC) you would not compensate for half of even one of these coal fired plants. And the new owners of all those cars sold in China will be driving to work with your gas while you bike in the rain.
But it sure feels good to be sanctimonious huh?

Check out!

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